Power Discrepancy!

[Akhorahil 10]

I imagine most of you know what exactly I’m referring to when I use a term like “power discrepancy” in the context of Warcraft. Even if you’re not exactly a roleplayer, so long as you’ve played World of Warcraft and favor yourself a bit of a critical thinker, you may have had your own views on this matter.

To put it to words: I’m speaking of the discrepancy between player classes. By now, in Legion, every player character is a paragon of their class that has proven themselves capable of mastering their respective skillset. Even down to every specialization. However, there’s an inherent gap between these classes from an in-character point of view. If you feel you don't need to spend time reading about my particular thoughts on the matter, and how I feel it's addressed in WoW proper, feel free to skip the long-winded explanation and hypothetical contained in this here spoiler box.

Spoiler

Let’s use a warrior as our starting point. In fact, let’s use a master warrior as our starting point. Veteran of several large battles with a good head on their shoulders! They know how to use a weapon and they know the importance of when and where to do so. Let us further define a warrior as just…a warrior. Sword, board, and moxie.

Then you have shamans; warriors clad in mail armor that command the elements to summon totems, lightning storms, and fiery avatars. Death knights, those plate-wearing undead fiends that command the power of ice, plague, and even the blood in your veins. Mages, in command of forces that make up the fabric of reality! With a waggle of their fingers and a well-spoken incantation, you could be sent spiraling through space to end up falling from fifty feet above where you just stood – and that’s just a party trick compared to what they can really do.

Not to mention the perfidious warlocks, fel-infused demon hunters, and the nature-commanding druids. The last of whom can transform into feral beasts.

Now, of course, this master warrior could outsmart and beat a novice of anything, really. Experience counts! Buuuuut in the interest of making our playing field level…a master warrior against a similarly experienced representative from any of these classes? By trying to make it fair, you make it unfair. By trying to make it more favorable for the warrior, you end up stacking the deck more and more against the opposing class simply because a normal person needs such a handicap.

Blizzard cures this handicap by making the player representative of their class be incredibly important. You lead your class as the best there is, commanding living legends and wielding artifacts of incredible, sometimes eldritch, powers – elevating them beyond mundane mortality. Be it an ancient sword besmirched by the inky blood of a faceless general, daggers painstakingly created from the fangs of Sargeras’ pet felhound, or even Mimiron’s modern marvel of a rifle; a gun which draws on the very essence of fierce thunderstorms…the more average classes get a leg up in official lore, in the interest of making them equally as heroic and effective against the raging demonic horde that is the Burning Legion.

TL;DR – our proud warrior armed with just their sword, shield, and go get ’em attitude cannot contend with a similarly experienced member of an inherently stronger class without a long list of “what ifs” and “but if I have this...” logic.

In roleplay, this power discrepancy attracts people to play these powerful classes. Sometimes well, more times not so well. People who enjoy something less fantastic may fall to the side of a simple fighter or marksman, and suddenly find themselves at an inherent disadvantage if they ever find themselves in combat against one of these beefier classes ( which, as everyone knows, can happen at the drop of a hat considering how some people behave ).

So, at the end of this long-winded post about something many of you may have already thought about and know full well exists, I’d like to ask how you manage with this? In the past, I would create some backdoor OP feature in a more mundane character. “This way I can deal with jerks that try to start something with me,” I’d tell myself. Nowadays I feel that detracts from the character far too much to justify writing it in.

On the other side: my eponymous death knight, Akhorahil, stays out of trouble. There’s no reason for an old undead elf to loiter around more normal people. If you’ve seen him in a phase, it was likely because he was requested there for good reason.

So, Epsilon! How exactly do you cope? Are you a more grounded roleplayer that focuses less on the high-fantasy aspect of Warcraft, and if so – what happens when you’re face to face with that fantastical element?

For you powerful boys and girls; what drew you to that? Do you simply have it as an ace up your sleeve, leaving you to partake in more frivolous activities with no fears of interruption? Or do you go whole-hog and embrace the lifestyle of the powerful, and the responsibility that comes with it?

Please, feel free to share some experiences!

 

 

please don't let this post turn into a lonely shout into the void oh goodness I couldn't handle the sheer nothingness

[Mithaniel 66]

Personally, I follow headcanon for warriors that warriors make up for the huge power discrepency with a supernatural "force" (AKA Rage) which allows them to do amazing feats. I also dabble in the idea that magic casters really only have the limit of their body / mind / spirit - whichever is applicable. I believe that is the best way to take it. For example, feats for novice mages becomes repeatable with little taxation to the master mage - and repeat for other spellcasters. 

 

Also, power is one thing. The knowledge to use it is another. As is the knowledge on fighting enemies who fight differently than you or with more power.

[Akhorahil 10]

1 hour ago, Mithaniel said:

Personally, I follow headcanon for warriors that warriors make up for the huge power discrepency with a supernatural "force" (AKA Rage) which allows them to do amazing feats. I also dabble in the idea that magic casters really only have the limit of their body / mind / spirit - whichever is applicable. I believe that is the best way to take it. For example, feats for novice mages becomes repeatable with little taxation to the master mage - and repeat for other spellcasters. 

I like the idea that Rage could be something "real" that comes into effect for warriors past the obvious berserker angle. My counter-point was going to be the cherry-picking nature of that compared to a caster using mana, but mana has recently...undergone changes. It's a physical substance ( physical in so much that there's liquid mana, you can sap mana from the air and leylines ) but is also used as a resource for many different classes, while still being explicitly arcane? I find myself agreeing with you on a caster relying mostly on their personal limits.

1 hour ago, Mithaniel said:

Also, power is one thing. The knowledge to use it is another. As is the knowledge on fighting enemies who fight differently than you or with more power.

I agree whole-heartedly. My point loses potency on a more individual basis, as I said in my hypothetical. There are, of course, a huge variety of things you can pull if you're clever. As I said I'd love seeing some examples of that out of people.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Akhorahil

[TheDemon 109]

OK. Firstly let's establish the difference between characters one should RP and player characters in Legion. One should not RP these powerful characters for quite obvious reasons I hope I don't need to state.

But still briefly about them. These heroes are all on basically the same power level, regardless of class, thanks to many different powerups they have (Odyn's blessings and powerful enchanted armour for warriors, demon stat boosts for DHs, etc.).

 

Now to the point of somewhat averages (a.k.a. the characters we RP). This is a much more complex issue because every class is presented somewhat differently and therefore the perceived average varies a lot. When it comes to the real average, some classes still have higher 'naked' (or base) power level, but it is not by much. Fortunately, the classes on the lower side of this spectrum have many ways how to make up for the difference - they have a lot of ways to boost their stats so to say. 

Another important factor to talk about is scaling of base power with experience, which is (unsurprisingly) different for every class (f.e. warrior has quite straight curve almost linear, while mage has slow climb from the start, with steep spike towards the end) -> novice warrior will beat novice mage, while a master mage will beat master warrior (talking just base power).

Of course, heroic classes are much stronger and it doesn't make sense to really scale them too much with other classes (f.e. to be a noob DK, you already have to be a very skilled warrior).

If you want to I can make an in-depth analysis of every class, and talk about how they would fair in combat against each other. And even add some ideas how a class could overcome its disadvantages against other class.

 

Final words: RPing a powerful character in the right way - to make it enjoyable for you and others - is hard, much harder than many people think. You don't need to make yourself extremely powerful to compete with others and by no means think that warrior can't take on mage. He can, you just have to be smart about it.

And in the end, allow me to quote a good friend of mine, hopefully, you will understand what it means:

"In a world filled with powerful demon lords, the strongest character is a peasant with a good banish spell."

Edited June 7, 2018 by Vojtik

[Rogan 158]

just do what u want 

[Akhorahil 10]

10 hours ago, Vojtik said:

OK. Firstly let's establish the difference between characters one should RP and player characters in Legion. One should not RP these powerful characters for quite obvious reasons I hope I don't need to state.

I don't see why you felt the need to say this, or continue with...talking down to me as though I didn't understand anything? I brought up the Legion Hero characters simply to establish how Blizzard themselves solved this problem in their story. I even said it takes away from the character should you attempt to continually power them up to keep even with stronger classes? For now, I'll ignore the tone of your post, however, since you did make a point I liked.

10 hours ago, Vojtik said:

Another important factor to talk about is scaling of base power with experience, which is (unsurprisingly) different for every class (f.e. warrior has quite straight curve almost linear, while mage has slow climb from the start, with steep spike towards the end) -> novice warrior will beat novice mage, while a master mage will beat master warrior (talking just base power).

This! It's good stuff. I had focused entirely on the hypothetical masters of their class that I hadn't considered how power scales with experience, or how much work you actually need to put in to achieve the imbalanced power of the more fantastical classes. If we were to forsake my clinical approach and simply take two novices that had been training for an equal amount of time, I completely agree that the outcome is much much less set in stone, and perhaps even in favor of the martial class.

To address a final point of yours without making this post a quotefest, however...of course wit and wile can achieve victory over sheer power. In fact, that's what I was hoping to hear about when I asked for people to share their experiences, and asking them how they cope with being a more grounded role that comes face to face with some stronger, more magically inclined class.

However, the point of my initial post was to establish what is, in my opinion, an indisputable fact; from an even standpoint, that being two characters that are completely equal to one another save for their class, the more grounded "mundane" classes cannot compete. Then, I asked for stories of people overcoming that power discrepancy, or even fleeing in the face of it...or dying to it! Then, I asked those that choose to RP powerful characters why and how they do it. In no way was I implying people should or shouldn't roleplay one or the other, nor was I discounting the individual nature of a roleplayer/character, and their ability to come out ahead against improbable odds.

You seem like a knowledgeable person, Vojtik, but I think you misinterpreted my words in a way that left you looking rather disrespectful.

[TheDemon 109]

 

I do not know why you would perceive my comment as disrespectful, because it is not in any way shape or form. If you see it like that I do appoligisse. 
You've made a lot of points in your original comment, I might have misunderstood some, or I chose to address the, for you, less important ones.

To those other points then:

How to cope with powerful characters?
Well, I kind of answered some of that in the very last part.
If one founds themselves confronted with powerful mages on a regular basis, the easiest way to 'give oneself a fighting chance' is to give themselves anti-magic proprieties via some means (tattoos, enchanted items, ...). Reasonable people do accept this. Most people don't find it enjoyable to just slap others around and they will be more than happy to give the less powerful character some compensation.
If one meets a "god", well ... there is not much to do but to calmly walk away.

If one, however, wants to play a weaker character, they should be ready to confront stronger characters, since they made that choice. They should know (have planed), how the character will react when confronted with strong ones. -- There really is little advise on this, every character will react differently. I personally do enjoy playing these characters a bit and I could tell stories about how I managed to trick and outsmart a group of evil-ish mages, or how I talked an orc into not killing me and later we became good friends in a tavern, or how I almost killed myself while running from a crazy plague-psychopath, or how I got to fight some troll loa while I was hired by some goblin to cook in his new restaurant. And probably a few more. (actually just remembering them, I might write them in the future when I have time)

 

When it comes to OP characters and me, I usually don't enjoy playing those. But there are exceptions. Notably, there are three - two of which were made powerful and one who became powerful.
First one (a shaman) was not really made to be strong, he was made to be a teacher and guide, a wise old man of sorts. However, that meant he had to be also very strong. But because of his age and personality, this never was an issue since he rarely gets into confrontations.

Second one was made to be powerful. He was made just because I wanted to try actively powerful character and how it would feel. It quite frankly sucked at first and didn't feel good at all. But over time I learned how to handle the power in a way that I was not seen as an asshole and I find out clever ways of using that power, which made it much more interesting for everyone. -- Most basically I found out how much power can I use during given events and people being ok with it. Those special tricks very much depend on the character.

Lastly, the one who became powerful. This is a rare case since it is a character that is with me for many years and went through a lot of development, good and bad. His story is too long, but in a nutshel, while studying magical artefacts, performing experiments, researching forbidden teachings and some other wackdoodleshlus, he slowly became a real powerhouse. At this point in time (Legion) he is just ridiculously powerful. Curiously enough he was never interested in gathering power, and more into knowledge, it just sort of happened. He is unfortunately quite a passive one so he doesn't go on offence too often. With this character, I limit myself a lot and I am using most of his power only with people, which I know can handle that.

TLDR from what I've learned, when playing a powerful character, one needs to find the correct limit for certain situations.A.k.a Going full power against invading demonlord is OK, while burning a random petty thief in a fairy hell is not. 

One should also think about some clever and unique way to use their wast power. To that, I will add an example which is not of my design, but I had the pleasure to recently encounter. --A mage using his arcane powers to create manastones and use them as his main weapon, throwing them, making sword out of them, everything- This character in raw power was quite a bit more powerful than the others in the group, but because it was really well made concept, everyone was ok with that. Also, that guy was limiting his strength by the fact that his fighting style was more costly than that of a  usual mage. Eventually, just use op characters with friends who are ok with that.

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Vojtik

[Romeo 320]

6 hours ago, Vojtik said:

 

I do not know why you would perceive my comment as disrespectful, because it is not in any way shape or form. If you see it like that I do appoligisse. 
You've made a lot of points in your original comment, I might have misunderstood some, or I chose to address the, for you, less important ones.

To those other points then:

How to cope with powerful characters?
Well, I kind of answered some of that in the very last part.
If one founds themselves confronted with powerful mages on a regular basis, the easiest way to 'give oneself a fighting chance' is to give themselves anti-magic proprieties via some means (tattoos, enchanted items, ...). Reasonable people do accept this. Most people don't find it enjoyable to just slap others around and they will be more than happy to give the less powerful character some compensation.
If one meets a "god", well ... there is not much to do but to calmly walk away.

If one, however, wants to play a weaker character, they should be ready to confront stronger characters, since they made that choice. They should know (have planed), how the character will react when confronted with strong ones. -- There really is little advise on this, every character will react differently. I personally do enjoy playing these characters a bit and I could tell stories about how I managed to trick and outsmart a group of evil-ish mages, or how I talked an orc into not killing me and later we became good friends in a tavern, or how I almost killed myself while running from a crazy plague-psychopath, or how I got to fight some troll loa while I was hired by some goblin to cook in his new restaurant. And probably a few more. (actually just remembering them, I might write them in the future when I have time)

 

When it comes to OP characters and me, I usually don't enjoy playing those. But there are exceptions. Notably, there are three - two of which were made powerful and one who became powerful.
First one (a shaman) was not really made to be strong, he was made to be a teacher and guide, a wise old man of sorts. However, that meant he had to be also very strong. But because of his age and personality, this never was an issue since he rarely gets into confrontations.

Second one was made to be powerful. He was made just because I wanted to try actively powerful character and how it would feel. It quite frankly sucked at first and didn't feel good at all. But over time I learned how to handle the power in a way that I was not seen as an asshole and I find out clever ways of using that power, which made it much more interesting for everyone. -- Most basically I found out how much power can I use during given events and people being ok with it. Those special tricks very much depend on the character.

Lastly, the one who became powerful. This is a rare case since it is a character that is with me for many years and went through a lot of development, good and bad. His story is too long, but in a nutshel, while studying magical artefacts, performing experiments, researching forbidden teachings and some other wackdoodleshlus, he slowly became a real powerhouse. At this point in time (Legion) he is just ridiculously powerful. Curiously enough he was never interested in gathering power, and more into knowledge, it just sort of happened. He is unfortunately quite a passive one so he doesn't go on offence too often. With this character, I limit myself a lot and I am using most of his power only with people, which I know can handle that.

TLDR from what I've learned, when playing a powerful character, one needs to find the correct limit for certain situations.A.k.a Going full power against invading demonlord is OK, while burning a random petty thief in a fairy hell is not. 

One should also think about some clever and unique way to use their wast power. To that, I will add an example which is not of my design, but I had the pleasure to recently encounter. --A mage using his arcane powers to create manastones and use them as his main weapon, throwing them, making sword out of them, everything- This character in raw power was quite a bit more powerful than the others in the group, but because it was really well made concept, everyone was ok with that. Also, that guy was limiting his strength by the fact that his fighting style was more costly than that of a  usual mage. Eventually, just use op characters with friends who are ok with that.

 

Long post, but I just wanted to say why would you ever go out beyond your own characters limits just because a fight should get more fair? Your character is bound to their abilities, to their strengths and weaknesses. If I suddenly decided Glaeweth can counter anything she goes against just for a more fair fight then what the fuck is the point of having a fixed class or a fixed concept for your character? Just rename yourself Mystique then.

[Aelle 16]

All my spellcasters have a 'mana pool' of sorts, and they all run dry eventually, or at least require my character to take a figurative 'breather'.

[Kenkaruto 1]

The first thing would be to simply choose your characters 'power level'. Be it at the start, or them going through the journey to -get- to that level. Personally preferring the latter, but..

Then would come your characters strengths and weaknesses. A Mage may be near unbeatable in a ranged fight (with being able to summon fireballs from the sky to bombard their opponent) but the moment you get close is the moment they may hesitate, or panic. A warrior with their Adrenaline-fueled rage-state would be the opposite. Unkillable in close quarters (unless against a Death Knight) but lacking in ranged.

 

You have to decide what your character is good at and what they suck at, as well as what they do to try and counteract their massive weaknesses. On average, a mage isn't conditioned to wear heavy armour, so they wouldn't be able to take much punishment before falling dead, or a ranger may eventually run out of arrows when hunting. It's all about optimizing your strengths and nullifying as many weaknesses as you can.

As for "Mana pool" it should (and usually does) work that way. -ANY- Arcane-based magic (So not Holy / Void) takes a toll on your physical body. Slight exhaustion causing headaches, nausea and dizziness. Continued exhaustion could lead to blackouts and even memory loss at advanced stages, given the strain it puts on your mind. This is why Mages (on average!) try to win a fight as quick and as effortless as possible. Because the more they throw at their opponent, the weaker they get.

At the end of the day, you just need to decide a FIXED set of where your character is. Not constantly fluctuate without justification. Fighting another roleplayer when you could use "Well, I could just 1-up their attacks and win" as a justification only makes you seem like an asshole. You dont always need to win a fight. Infact sometimes it's better to lose more than winning, as that gives your character IC motivation to GET BETTER. If you're constantly winning, then it's pointless to fight if you don't learn from the experience.

[Akhorahil 10]

19 hours ago, Kenkaruto said:

The first thing would be to simply choose your characters 'power level'. Be it at the start, or them going through the journey to -get- to that level. Personally preferring the latter, but..

I think this, alongside a sentiment I had heard in-game, ties into something very crucial for the people that choose to roleplay the best of the best, always winning, never wavering hardasses...

Which is that good roleplay takes effort and time. It's obviously a lot easier to never lose. To, as I said in my original post, simply be OP so you don't have to worry about interruptions in casual RP or what have you. Which speaks of a mindset I was hoping to get a grasp of with this thread, that of the more casual roleplayer, and where they fall on this scale. If they're casual in the sense that they don't choose a strong role to begin with, or choose something static yet strong, or go for the overtly powerful - and why. The type of person not likely to build a character up from the ground.

Not to judge them for their choices, but to just understand what it is they get out of roleplaying the way they do.

On 6/12/2018 at 0:52 AM, VernDagon said:

All my spellcasters have a 'mana pool' of sorts, and they all run dry eventually, or at least require my character to take a figurative 'breather'.

19 hours ago, Kenkaruto said:

As for "Mana pool" it should (and usually does) work that way. -ANY- Arcane-based magic (So not Holy / Void) takes a toll on your physical body. Slight exhaustion causing headaches, nausea and dizziness. Continued exhaustion could lead to blackouts and even memory loss at advanced stages, given the strain it puts on your mind. This is why Mages (on average!) try to win a fight as quick and as effortless as possible. Because the more they throw at their opponent, the weaker they get.

Yes, right, the "resource" for a mage being the extent of their spirit or body. People do roleplay having a limit on their character, though it'd be interesting to know exactly what defines their limit. The sheer quantity of spells - and what's the breaking point in strength? What, in the opinion of the archmage player, tires out their archmage? Are blue dragons subject to this limiter? (That I actually know nothing about, dragons seem to fluctuate so wildly in quality that I've never really expended effort to RP with one.)

I do have to say I have never seen anyone embrace real, long-lasting negative effects of being pushed to their limit over and over on a caster. That is definitely something I'd like to see more of.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Akhorahil

[Aelle 16]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:22 PM, Akhorahil said:

Yes, right, the "resource" for a mage being the extent of their spirit or body. People do roleplay having a limit on their character, though it'd be interesting to know exactly what defines their limit. The sheer quantity of spells - and what's the breaking point in strength? What, in the opinion of the archmage player, tires out their archmage? Are blue dragons subject to this limiter? (That I actually know nothing about, dragons seem to fluctuate so wildly in quality that I've never really expended effort to RP with one.)

Typically, I get a 'feel' for the situation. I look back at my previous turns, the sorts of spells I've flung out, and I decide to myself "Okay. After this spell, I've got one more spell left in me before I need to take a breather/my mana pool's spent."

Sometimes it's an efficient and logical method of putting your character in a potentially hazardous situation, and it gives other players something to do.

One of my spellcasters is a Blue Dragon Whelp who, for all of his knowledge and understanding of the arcane at a higher level, runs dry on mana real quick.

The natural arcane proficiency and pool of your character's race (e.g. Dragons, Ethereals, Demons, Blood Elves) makes a good deciding factor in this, as does the length of time your character has been practicing his or her craft. (A human Archmage is not only going to be able to fling tougher spells, but is going to have a far larger mana pool compared to a human magi apprentice)

Edited June 15, 2018 by VernDagon