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Norshar

Nathrezim versus Spectral Sight

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So it has been a debated thing for awhile, saying that Spectral Sight cannot pierce the guise of Nathrezim. Despite the wowpedia defintion of Spectral Sight saying that it sees anything demonic, speculation and headcanon was still used. Well, it can indeed pierce the disguise of a Nathrezim. Note that, I always had believed it could but just to clarify to clear up all that talk.

 

Source/How I came across this: I was rping in Dalaran on retail, I have my Spectral Sight button bound to Q and I accidentaly hit it. I seen an npc, named Lord Adder. Though instead, I seen him as a Nathrezim. If you think this is invalid, go on a DH. Go to Dalaran, find the npc known as Lord Adder and hit your Spectral Sight key. 

 

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lord_Adder

 

Lilian Voss says: The demons knew the Illidari would find them if they tried to infiltrate our cities again, so they sent in these... homonculi.

 

 

Edited by Norshar

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whats the point in having spectral sight if u cant see demons.

demon hunters can see through bullshit illusions better than  ppl can see through fake news.

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Nathrezim are masters of trickery and deceit. They infiltrate, disguise, and cause havoc from the backlines. They're also disgustingly powerful demons, to such a point I don't think a demon hunter would be able to tell if they're demons if the nathrezim doesn't want to be seen. They're like, 900 IQ last boss creatures man.

"But muh illidari questlines" doesn't justify that nathrezim could be easily beaten, they can't. Players shouldn't even be able to defeat nathrezim unless they got a whole group of Mithaniel-leveled characters in my opinion, what's the point of having different powerful enemies if you can defeat them anyhow? Insert some threat into wow, make things fearful, make them better, stronger, luckier than you and there you go - an awesome villain.

Edited by Romeo

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3 hours ago, Romeo said:

Nathrezim are disgusting to such a point I don't think a Player doesn't want to be Mithaniel-leveled character. They're like, 10 IQ last boss creatures man.

"But muh powerful Player" justifies that nathrezim could be easily beaten, they can.

 

:^)


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spectral sight goes through every demon disguise

 

end


[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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8 hours ago, Morgus said:

In-game abilities isn't always canon though.

Neither is anything you do in RP. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure the NPC wasn't included for nothing.


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4 minutes ago, ArvickCorpsebane said:

I'm pretty sure the NPC wasn't included for nothing.

Giving DH players a reason to use spectral sight for more than a couple of quests, if any.

 

Oh, and some loot/reagents.

 

It's something, but still may as well be nothing. I do not think much thought was put into it. The wowhead pages do not list any quest material, only loot. The wowpedia articles only detail what they are and how to reveal them with your artifact weapon or your sight if you're a DH. The player hero is more powerful than what we play on this server (or, that's how it should be.)

6 hours ago, Romeo said:

Nathrezim are masters of trickery and deceit. They infiltrate, disguise, and cause havoc from the backlines. They're also disgustingly powerful demons, to such a point I don't think a demon hunter would be able to tell if they're demons if the nathrezim doesn't want to be seen. They're like, 900 IQ last boss creatures man.

Romeo basically summed my thoughts up with this. Something practically timeless that is adept at hiding will not be found if it does not want to be.

Furthermore, "Only after much exertion and investigation do the heroes uncover the dreadlord behind a plot. Even then, the task of tracking and slaying a dreadlord can overwhelm the most competent hunter of evil. "


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37 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Giving DH players a reason to use spectral sight for more than a couple of quests, if any.

I dunno.

Still. IMO a clever-enough Dreadlord will find a workaround. They always do. It's their shtick.


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The way Spectral sight was made is that Demon Hunters can see through any guise.  Let's completely forget Nathrezim from the topic for just a moment, and remember what they did to get the spectral sight in the first place.

To actually get it, they merged with a demon, this means they've seen the full extent of the Legion as the demon had.  Now, if we take this into consideration, it has been depicted as them either having their eyes burned out, or even ripping their eyes out from terror.  Leaving smoldering eye sockets.  

On the Wowpedia page, it references it being able to see through any guise, and though I can understand WHY people think they cannot see through the guise of a Nathrezim, the Demon Hunter CAN.  Allow me to explain why.  The reason being is that Nathrezim could disguise to take over political positions, and have even done this with the Scarlet Crusade.  Though the demon hunter was never a variable in past, this is why they haven't simply made Azeroth kill itself.  From a story perspective, the demon hunter is the bane of all demons.  Besides popular belief, the Nathrezim aren't -Super- powerful in the spectrum of things.  They are cunning, and intelligent beyond the minds of a mortal.  However, they aren't made the Legion's Grand Generals and front line fighters because they are better strategists.  Each demon has a skillset for a specific reason, and the Nathrezim could find a work around.  For example; making some mortal work for them.  

If you want to disagree with them not being super powerful, then fine.  That's fair.  But ask yourself this; if they are stronger than a weaker demon...  Wouldn't there be -more- for a demon hunter to pick up on?  Regardless of how good, an illusion has limits.  To even a Nathrezim.

 

(Side note, Nathrezim RP is generally shit.  Due to the fact that they are so intelligent it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Human being to mimic them.  They are described as cunning, and more intelligent than the mortal mind can understand.  And even OOC, we are mortal human beings.  So based off of basic description; we are not smart enough.)

(PS. I forgot to mention, I am not saying they aren't powerful.  But their power is derived from intelligence and cunning, not blunt force.  Though they are rather notable.  It is not impossible for a mortal to grow to their power level.  Though it is impossible for them to be just as smart.)

Edited by Insomnia

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41 minutes ago, Insomnia said:

(Side note, Nathrezim RP is generally shit.  Due to the fact that they are so intelligent it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Human being to mimic them.  They are described as cunning, and more intelligent than the mortal mind can understand.  And even OOC, we are mortal human beings.  So based off of basic description; we are not smart enough.)

1

Based off basic description; it is impossible for Blizzard (or anyone else) to write them at all.

You don't really think any RPer RPs a 1 to 1 replica of a living being? - The most you can do is create a character that has a certain personality, backstory, and plot. - Just as writers are able to write incomprehensibly omnipotent beings, so can a roleplayer. Whether they can convey the character realistically or not remains for the individual.


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demons literally made homunculi to avoid being found out as demons

 

golly gee why would dreadlords use homunculi if theyre immune to spectral sight

 

stop this discussion.


[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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shouldn't we note the player character is the slayer of the illidari while most rpers are (and shouldn't be) nowhere near that caliber


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On 9/5/2017 at 4:52 PM, Insomnia said:

(Side note, Nathrezim RP is generally shit.  Due to the fact that they are so intelligent it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Human being to mimic them.  They are described as cunning, and more intelligent than the mortal mind can understand.  And even OOC, we are mortal human beings.  So based off of basic description; we are not smart enough.)

It's unfair to denigrate one type of RP based on reasoning that can be applied to virtually all RP.

Nathrezim are an imagined, fictional race. Their logic is based solely on the writer's imagination and extrapolation. 

---

As for dreadlords vs. spectral sight: based on how it's been handled in quests and vignettes, it's anyone's guess. The particular instances where spectral sight is able to reveal a dreadlord involves the power level of the class order hall leader, which is a probable factor. Considering they possess an actual body, their disguises are likely much harder to crack than just a regular illusion. 

I wouldn't split hairs over it.

Edited by migs1014

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The Illidan novel elaborates on demon hunter sight beginning on page 77 and it goes more in-depth beginning on page 88. They can see all forms of magic; refer to the War of the Ancients trilogy (Illidan's meeting with Queen Azshara) and the Felwood demon hunter questline in Cataclysm for futher reference.

Dreadlords are not an exception to spectral sight. No demon is.

From Illidan:

“You are saying you can shift from seeing the world like this to seeing it as if you had eyes?”
“Indeed, and many gradations between.”
He tried to imagine Illidan as he had previously seen him, and slowly a very rough image of the Betrayer stood before him, like a child’s illustration drawn in mud. Its mud mouth moved as Illidan spoke. “In a way it is like working magic. You get a feel for the flows of power. You get a sense of the souls of the living and the unliving.”

From The Sundering page 37:

Illidan caught his breath as he turned his senses to the queen. A brilliant radiance surrounded Azshara, a silver glow he finally recognized as indication of the power she wielded. Illidan would have blinked if he could. Although Azshara had been beloved by all her people, some, such as him, had assumed that her skills in the arts were negligible. He had always believed that she had required the might of the Highborne for the casting of spells. Illidan wondered if even the late Lord Xavius or the erstwhile Captain Varo'then had ever understood just how accomplished their monarch was.

...
“I've been most impressed by you, Illidan Stormrage! So very clever, so very powerful! Even our Lord Sargeras sees that or else why would he grant you such a precious gift?” Long, tapering fingers caressed the scarf. “Such a shame to lose the beautiful amber eyes, though…I know it hurts much…”

Edited by Witch

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On 9/5/2017 at 8:58 PM, Traius said:

shouldn't we note the player character is the slayer of the illidari while most rpers are (and shouldn't be) nowhere near that caliber

it doesn't show any spectral sight being lesser or greater


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Just now, Norshar said:

it doesn't show any spectral sight being lesser or greater

I'm pretty sure in the dh starting zone they call over the player to use their spectral sight on the wall and the others couldn't


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Just now, Traius said:

I'm pretty sure in the dh starting zone they call over the player to use their spectral sight on the wall and the others couldn't

it also says all DHs have the gift to pierce demonic guises and it wouldn't be the first time retail contradicts canon lore (nightborne who are fel corrupted using arcane and so on)


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Just now, Norshar said:

it also says all DHs have the gift to pierce demonic guises and it wouldn't be the first time retail contradicts canon lore (nightborne who are fel corrupted using arcane and so on)

ok so nothing in game is canon


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that's not what i'm inferring, i'm inferring that lore has sometimes been contradicted.


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i mean they wouldn't do such a sacrifice if they couldn't see through all guises

 

being a demon hunter and not being able to spot some nathrezim just because they are masters of disguise sounds like a shitty trade, since they can single-handedly fuck you up if you actually got no way to unmask them

 

and before you bring the player character argument, PC Nathrezim aren't as powerful as lore Nathrezim

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Well because Spectral sight is not a thing made to hunt demons it has some "flaws", also the in-game representation is not lore-accurate.

So there are plenty of ways how skilled/intelligent Nathrezim could hide himself from this.

 

Also to all you DH out there who think that revealing and then fighting a Dreadlord 1v1 or with a help of some random peasants, it is not and you will most likely die during such encounter.

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3 hours ago, Traius said:

I'm pretty sure in the dh starting zone they call over the player to use their spectral sight on the wall and the others couldn't

 

16 minutes ago, Vojtik said:

Well because Spectral sight is not a thing made to hunt demons it has some "flaws", also the in-game representation is not lore-accurate.

So there are plenty of ways how skilled/intelligent Nathrezim could hide himself from this.

I think you both would benefit from reading the Illidan novel. Every Illidari demon hunter survived the same training and received the same tattoos and powers. Refer to my above post for more information also.

There are no exceptions to spectral sight, there are no versions of it; demon hunters invariably see demons. They see all forms of magic.


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I think you would benefit from using your brain @Witch. Because you just said exactly what I said.

(Also I've read the Illidan novel more time than you)

And, besides the point of this discussion, but you brought it up. No, not every demonhunter has the same tattoos and powers. Their power are partially derived from the demon they bare and so are the tattoos.

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