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Norshar

Nathrezim versus Spectral Sight

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they dont bear a demon they bear fel energies derived from eating a heart and drinking its blood

theres nod ifference

 

the tattoos are functionally the same

Edited by Erkor

[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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Not really. The demon inside them is very much alive, trying to consume them. The main reason for those tattoos is to help them suppress that demon.

Edited by Vojtik

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Also, so far in lore there is one thing that evades Spectral Sight. 

 

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Homunculus

 

Outside of that, there is no example of a demon evading it. Nathrezim are caught by it and so on, now I get some of yalls points as it's entirely skeptical that Illidan and the Slayer have better sight. I'm not gonna shoot you down for it because as I said, it is skeptical though it does not show Spectral Sight varying on power from each individual. In the Illidan novel, they all go through the same thing. Which, along with the evidence of it saying..

http://imgur.com/a/TgvrN

^ From the Homunculus wowpedia page, as for @Vojtik. What you said, no demon can hide in disguise from a DH. Every example of them attempting to do so has been shot down by Spectral Sight. Also, for someone who said it's for select individuals. In Stormwind and Org, when the Wrathguards are surrounding you. I think it's Alari, the DH who tells you that she sees them around. 

 

I'm not trying to shoot down anyone here, but from the evidence in lore so far. No evidence concludes with any level of demon evading Spectral Sight, no evidence shows of any more or less powerful Spectral Sight either.

 

 

Edited by Norshar

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I'm rather in-between on this issue, albeit leaning towards the Nathrezim side of things, although I think there is a solid argument for both sides. The one side being that spectral sight clearly allows you to reveal Nathrezim through in-game mechanics, and the other being that in-game mechanics are notoriously not representative of lore. As far as I can tell, the issue comes down to headcanon, and personally I would prefer Nathrezim being unable to be seen by spectral sight. Firstly, because Nathrezim are meant to be infiltrators and masters of deceit, and having every Demon Hunter easily see through their guise defeats their purpose entirely. Secondly, there are a few individuals (I'm sure) who roleplay as Nathrezim here on Epsilon, and it makes for unintuitive and bland roleplay for a Demon Hunter character to skim the Nathrezim's TRP profile, realize they are a Nathrezim, and then call them out for it IC. It's much more engaging for an individual to perhaps detect some level of fel presence, or maybe a bit of taint, and have to investigate further to uncover the full truth of the Nathrezim's guise.

Edited by Silcore
clarity

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24 minutes ago, Silcore said:

I'm rather in-between on this issue, albeit leaning towards the Nathrezim side of things, although I think there is a solid argument for both sides. The one side being that spectral sight clearly allows you to reveal Nathrezim through in-game mechanics, and the other being that in-game mechanics are notoriously not representative of lore. As far as I can tell, the issue comes down to headcanon, and personally I would prefer Nathrezim being unable to be seen by spectral sight. Firstly, because Nathrezim are meant to be infiltrators and masters of deceit, and having every Demon Hunter easily see through their guise defeats their purpose entirely. Secondly, there are a few individuals (I'm sure) who roleplay as Nathrezim here on Epsilon, and it makes for unintuitive and bland roleplay for a Demon Hunter character to skim the Nathrezim's TRP profile, realize they are a Nathrezim, and then call them out for it IC. It's much more engaging for an individual to perhaps detect some level of fel presence, or maybe a bit of taint, and have to investigate further to uncover the full truth of the Nathrezim's guise.

http://imgur.com/a/TgvrN

I see your point, but I don't see the point of using headcanon when canon proves to us otherwise. I understand entirely, it's a dick in the ass to be seen by a DH but at the same time. If they want to be a Nathrezim who does shit like that, why not use Homonculus? Also, you are right they are great story elements.

Also, from the homonculus wowpedia page.

" Lilian Voss says: The demons knew the Illidari would find them if they tried to infiltrate our cities again, so they sent in these... homonculi. "

Edited by Norshar

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Just now, Norshar said:

http://imgur.com/a/TgvrN

I see your point, but I don't see the point of using headcanon when canon proves to us otherwise. I understand entirely, it's a dick in the ass to be seen by a DH but at the same time. If they want to be a Nathrezim who does shit like that, why not use Homonculus? Also, you are right they are great story elements.

The source states that Homonculi are used to circumvent spectral sight, yes, but it doesn't say that Nathrezim are susceptible to spectral sight. Rather, Nathrezim send Homonculi for infiltration, which makes sense since lower-tier demons that normally do grunt work would be revealed by every passing demon hunter. Recall that Nathrezim don't typically dabble in small infiltrations, and tend to stick around in the background for large-scale campaigns. Thus, the source doesn't necessarily state Nathrezim use Homonculi to act in their stead. It's very likely the Homonculi are used to act in place of their easily revealable lackeys.

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27 minutes ago, Silcore said:

The source states that Homonculi are used to circumvent spectral sight, yes, but it doesn't say that Nathrezim are susceptible to spectral sight. Rather, Nathrezim send Homonculi for infiltration, which makes sense since lower-tier demons that normally do grunt work would be revealed by every passing demon hunter. Recall that Nathrezim don't typically dabble in small infiltrations, and tend to stick around in the background for large-scale campaigns. Thus, the source doesn't necessarily state Nathrezim use Homonculi to act in their stead. It's very likely the Homonculi are used to act in place of their easily revealable lackeys.

I'm mainly using that to further prove my point of DEmon Hunters seeing through their guises, since the topic of this isn't about Homunculi just another source for the Spectral Sight arguement so I won't get off-topic. But, I already know of what they're used for and stuff because it's not the first time I read that over.


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33 minutes ago, Norshar said:

I'm mainly using that to further prove my point of DEmon Hunters seeing through their guises, since the topic of this isn't about Homunculi just another source for the Spectral Sight arguement so I won't get off-topic. But, I already know of what they're used for and stuff because it's not the first time I read that over.

I understand. I mean to say, although the wiki page is up to interpretation, it doesn't explicitly say that Nathrezim use Homunculi to act in their stead. If it had, it would suggest spectral sight could see through the guise of a Nathrezim. However, since it doesn't, it's much more likely they use Homunculi to act in the stead of felguards, which are the most likely to be on the front lines infiltrating mortal cities. This is only furthered by the fact that Nathrezim don't ever dabble in small infiltration missions, and so it would be unreasonable to say they use Homunculi to circumvent their presumed weakness to spectral sight. They tend to wait years or decades to slowly unfurl large-scale plans, like the one with the Scarlets, for example, which allows them to remain almost entirely hidden from prying eyes.

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7 minutes ago, Silcore said:

I understand. I mean to say, although the wiki page is up to interpretation, it doesn't explicitly say that Nathrezim use Homunculi to act in their stead. If it had, it would suggest spectral sight could see through the guise of a Nathrezim. However, since it doesn't, it's much more likely they use Homunculi to act in the stead of felguards, which are the most likely to be on the front lines infiltrating mortal cities. This is only furthered by the fact that Nathrezim don't ever dabble in small infiltration missions, and so it would be unreasonable to say they use Homunculi to circumvent their presumed weakness to spectral sight. They tend to wait years or decades to slowly unfurl large-scale plans, like the one with the Scarlets, for example, which allows them to remain almost entirely hidden from prying eyes.

" Lilian Voss says: The demons knew the Illidari would find them if they tried to infiltrate our cities again, so they sent in these... homonculi. "

This is implying, Demon Hunters pierce the guise of a Nathrezim. It may not specifically say nathrezim, but it says "the demons" which is enough.

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I think it's safe to say, no demon is safe. Notice how it's plural aswell.

Edited by Norshar

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13 minutes ago, Norshar said:

" Lilian Voss says: The demons knew the Illidari would find them if they tried to infiltrate our cities again, so they sent in these... homonculi. "

This is implying, Demon Hunters pierce the guise of a Nathrezim. It may not specifically say nathrezim, but it says "the demons" which is enough.

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The full context is important. Lilian Voss mentions that the dreadlords found a way to craft the undead operatives (Homonculi), but she is vague when stating "the demons knew the Illidari would find them". It's very likely the Illidari could peel back the guise of a low-tier demon like a felguard, succubus, imp, and so on. However, given the deceptive and supremely powerful nature of Nathrezim, it seems unlikely that they could peel away their guise.

 

Quote

I think it's safe to say, no demon is safe. Notice how it's plural aswell.

The plural "demons" could mean multiple things. It could mean "all demons" or "multiple demons of the same type" or "several types of demons".

 

All in all, I can understand your point, but I don't think the evidence is concrete enough to suggest that Nathrezim can definitively be revealed by spectral sight. At this point its a matter of arguing semantics and grammar, and what things like "demons" really mean, which is why I say this comes down to headcanon and what feels most appropriate in an RP environment.

Edited by Silcore
refined conclusion

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10 hours ago, Vojtik said:

Not really. The demon inside them is very much alive, trying to consume them. The main reason for those tattoos is to help them suppress that demon.

no the demon inside them lore is fake

 

you clearly iddnt read illidan if you think this is true


[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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If you believe that they can't see through it and that the text used by Lillian Voss still doesn't prove a defined point in this arguement, then why is it they send in these agents to not be detected later down the road in the lore after realizing the Illidari can see them? If they can't be seen, then why do not they not show up themselves? They sent in homunculi for a reason, a very well defined one. 

Because they can be seen by Spectral Sight. 

 

At this point though, I don't know what else to say. It says they send it agents, which is followed up with "the demons knew the Illidari would find them if they tried to infiltrate" which only proves my point further. The context itself ends the argument, because it says it right there. Nathrezim are the only demons who send those agents in, it's pretty much self-explanatory now as it always has been. I don't understand, the context of what Lillian said literally proves you wrong.

 

Edited by Norshar

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4 minutes ago, Norshar said:

If they can't be seen, then why do not they not show up themselves?

Nathrezim are not footsoldiers. They don't walk through Stormwind's gates with the intent of spying on people or executing targets. They linger in the background, where they don't need to get their hands dirty. That's why they don't show up themselves.

Quote

It says they send it agents, which is followed up with "the demons knew the Illidari would find them if they tried to infiltrate" which only proves my point further.

"The demons" is an ambiguous quote, which I believe refers to the demons that would normally be doing grunt work (i.e: felguards). This is because Nathrezim, again, are not the ones who infiltrate in this manner.

Quote

Nathrezim are the only demons who send those agents in, it's pretty much self-explanatory now as it always has been.

It isn't self-explanatory if the entire argument is open to interpretation.

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17 minutes ago, Erkor said:

you clearly iddnt read illidan if you think this is true

Really now? (first grammar nazi!)

"He clutched the amulet he had made for Khariel tight in his hand, a talisman of protection against the possibility, a reminder to himself of why he fought with his demon every day. Vengeance, Son. One day you will have vengeance. Something at the back of his mind mocked him, but for today, at least he could ignore it."

Now please, if you want to counter this concrete proof of my statement .... but you are getting from the topic of this post.

Edited by Vojtik

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lol what's next u guys gonna use game mechanic talentpoints to further ur points of ur mortal characters being better than demons xD

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But the real question is why do you want to roleplay an anti social potato with borderline God complexes? Because boy do I love walking my 4000 year old Illidari into a populated neutral bum town and socializing at the local pub :)


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41 minutes ago, Vojtik said:

Really now? (first grammar nazi!)

"He clutched the amulet he had made for Khariel tight in his hand, a talisman of protection against the possibility, a reminder to himself of why he fought with his demon every day. Vengeance, Son. One day you will have vengeance. Something at the back of his mind mocked him, but for today, at least he could ignore it."

Now please, if you want to counter this concrete proof of my statement .... but you are getting from the topic of this post.

illidan book chapter 18 page 238

"For a moment, he wavered. He listened to the voice of his inner demon and realized that it was his own. His soul had been tainted when he devoured the felhound. It had absorbed the demon’s evil and been twisted. There was really no other demon than himself. "

you didnt read the full book thanks goodbye

Edited by Erkor

[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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42 minutes ago, Silcore said:

Nathrezim are not footsoldiers. They don't walk through Stormwind's gates with the intent of spying on people or executing targets. They linger in the background, where they don't need to get their hands dirty. That's why they don't show up themselves.

"The demons" is an ambiguous quote, which I believe refers to the demons that would normally be doing grunt work (i.e: felguards). This is because Nathrezim, again, are not the ones who infiltrate in this manner.

It isn't self-explanatory if the entire argument is open to interpretation.

I said it's self-explanatory because of the context of the dialogue, which prompts the Nathrezim heavily but i'm stopping here. 


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Me(Norshar) use argumint " din ried bok" and me lose speaks withS SHIT.(Do im not have lore content for this location)

Edited by Rogan

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@Erkor You were supposed to disprove me, not to further my point. Ergo - prove that demon is dead, not that their souls are merged and therefor the demon alive. 

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Just now, Vojtik said:

@Erkor You were supposed to disprove me, not to further my point. Ergo - prove that demon is dead, not that their souls are merged and therefor the demon alive. 

??????????

 

it literally  says there is no demon


[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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 Whe nY ou canot Have Internal Voices Because The Lore Didnt Say So    Seem Like Onyl HUman RTHintg

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Did you even read what you've written?

"no other demon than himself" - there is a demon inside his body.

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1 minute ago, Vojtik said:

Did you even read what you've written?

"no other demon than himself" - there is a demon inside his body.

no?

 

it means that he's the demon e.g. he's evil

 

did you know the word demon has a figurative meaning


[Gunmar] says: "I can't believe this 'Arahi' woman went down so fast. Storm my arse."

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